How to define "Poor"?

[DaveInPgh]

[FLA]

IMO, one thing I think chaps alot of peoples asses making around the median hh income ($55K) is that there seems to be an aweful lot of poor families living a government subsidized lifestyle that appears as good if not better than those struggling to get by without assistance.

I've cared for people in those situations. In NY, if you are able bodied, you don't get benefits indefinitely, you are expected to work. SNAP benefits end or get lowered if there is an able bodied person in the home. People erroneously believe benefits last for years. It may look like life is good but try really raising a family on minimum wage, even receiving some subsidies, it's incredibly daunting and exhausting.

I can attest to living on disability to be very hard. More than half my benefits go to medical bills. Very little is left to pay for life. Yes, I have a safety cushion of retirement and have family helping me now but if I didn't, if I was truly on my own, I would be in deep s***. I would be on the nearly a year waiting list for crappy disability housing, I'd be using SNAP, I could kiss my dogs goodbye.

how do you really know what someone who relies on subsidies really lives like? no one, except the 3% fraud level, is getting rich on SNAP. I'd say just 3% of fraud in such a vast program is pretty darn good.

[disneysteve]

how do you really know what someone who relies on subsidies really lives like? no one, except the 3% fraud level, is getting rich on SNAP. I'd say just 3% of fraud in such a vast program is pretty darn good.

I agree with you, as I see it on a daily basis also. These people do not lead fun lives. I certainly wouldn't want to change places with them.

That said, I also see and hear about the abuse that goes on. Plus I see the faults in the system itself. Some of the stores around here have little shelf tags that they put by various items that you can buy with SNAP benefits. Where do they put those tags? Not on the fresh produce bins. Not on the low fat yogurt or lean beef. Not on the oatmeal or canned fruits and veggies. Nope. They put the tags on the potato chip shelves, the Red Bull refrigerator case, the candy aisle, and the like. Drives me nuts.

Roughly 70% of my patients who are on public assistance smoke cigarettes. Even the el cheapo generic brands are over $6/pack I think, so that's well over $2,000/year. I also frequently walk into the exam room only to find them scratching off their instant lottery tickets on my desk. Sorry, but if you can afford smoking and gambling, you clearly don't need all of the taxpayer benefits you are getting.

Many patients are also not the least bit shy about telling me that they work under the table when I ask them their occupation. They have jobs that pay cash so that it doesn't get reported which would result in them being ineligible for benefits which are income-based.

It is all of those types of things that get other people upset, rightfully so to an extent.

[FLA]

I also frequently walk into the exam room only to find them scratching off their instant lottery tickets on my desk. Sorry, but if you can afford smoking and gambling, you clearly don't need all of the taxpayer benefits you are getting.


It is all of those types of things that get other people upset, rightfully so to an extent.

the lottery ticket thing is ubiquitous, I don't get that mindset at all. Some people would get a benefit check and go buy 40 lottery tickets.

[disneysteve]

the lottery ticket thing is ubiquitous, I don't get that mindset at all. Some people would get a benefit check and go buy 40 lottery tickets.

I once had an older patient who had a very obviously cancerous growth on his ear. I kept urging him to get it taken care of. Finally he told me that he wasn't paying his $25 copay just for that. But he always had a breast pocket full of lottery tickets. I asked him how much he spent on tickets and he said $5/day. So he had no problem spending $35/week for that but wouldn't spend $25 once or twice to have cancer removed from his body. It's tough to know what to say at that point.

[HundredK]

I think those lottery tickets probably hold the only hope these people feel they will ever have to substantially change their position in life. I grew up in less than desirable circumstances and my relatives often did thihs. They would most definitely prefer to buy lottery tickets than pay a medical co-pay, because in their mind, when (not if, but when) they hit the lottery, they can get that pesky cancer taken care of. I still watch my dad do this. It's a sickness, but I have compassion. It may not make sense, but it's a form of hope.

[FLA]

and if they play a lot, they do sometimes win twenty or a couple hundred bucks which just confirms their hope that someday they'll hit it big

[StormRichards]

Like many others, I join the craze when the Powerball gets insanely high. But even then I am only throwing $5 at it, probably totals $50 to $60 per year.

When I worked in a store with a lottery, I gave the scratch tickets a try. No doubt it is a good thing I didn't get any of the $20 winners to keep me sucked in. Haven't bought them in well over 10 years.

But I do enjoy getting them from my boss and my uncle at Christmas time. My rule is winnings under $10 are exchanged for more tickets, and above that I pocket it and move on.

[Joan.of.the.Arch]

Dear, god, these are some sorry stories here tonight.

[bigdaddybus]

I agree with you, as I see it on a daily basis also. These people do not lead fun lives. I certainly wouldn't want to change places with them.

That said, I also see and hear about the abuse that goes on. Plus I see the faults in the system itself. Some of the stores around here have little shelf tags that they put by various items that you can buy with SNAP benefits. Where do they put those tags? Not on the fresh produce bins. Not on the low fat yogurt or lean beef. Not on the oatmeal or canned fruits and veggies. Nope. They put the tags on the potato chip shelves, the Red Bull refrigerator case, the candy aisle, and the like. Drives me nuts.

Roughly 70% of my patients who are on public assistance smoke cigarettes. Even the el cheapo generic brands are over $6/pack I think, so that's well over $2,000/year. I also frequently walk into the exam room only to find them scratching off their instant lottery tickets on my desk. Sorry, but if you can afford smoking and gambling, you clearly don't need all of the taxpayer benefits you are getting.

Many patients are also not the least bit shy about telling me that they work under the table when I ask them their occupation. They have jobs that pay cash so that it doesn't get reported which would result in them being ineligible for benefits which are income-based.

It is all of those types of things that get other people upset, rightfully so to an extent.

Well said

Before my wife and I got involved in the foster care system I was pretty clueless about WIC, SNAP, LINK, cash assistance, daycare assistance, and the medical card.

I am for all of these programs, what I am against is how people find ways to "game the system".
For example, I was in line behind 2 young ladies at my local Jewel/Osco. The first one bought 8 or so Snapple juice drinks and meat to grill out with her SNAP card. The second girl bought a 1/5 of something with cash and they were talking about which flavor of Snapple would be the best with it.
I have met quite a few fathers working for cash so they can keep there govt benefits. This behavior is what I was talking about and what ticks me off.

based on the number of guys I have met working for cash so they can keep benefits, I question the validity of the 3% fraud statistic.

[disneysteve]

I question the validity of the 3% fraud statistic.

Any estimate of fraud is just a guess based on people they've caught. There is no way to know how many people they haven't caught. 3% is fantasy. That's a number designed to bolster support for the program.

Also, how do they define fraud in the SNAP program? I think it's fraud for someone to use their benefits to buy Coke and Hershey bars. WIC has a strict list of what food can be purchased with benefits. Why can't we do the same for SNAP?

[LivingAlmostLarge]

A lot of people also don't get married so they can get medical benefits but live with their partners and kids. Sigh. Considering how many people do this in my family I won't judge but I know it happens. So they can get medicaid and wic and food stamps etc. But the guy has a job. And my relatives have been on both sides. Men and women doing it. So I can definitely see abuse.

But at the same time if they weren't getting it then what would happen to the kids? They'd be even worse off.

[disneysteve]

A lot of people also don't get married so they can get medical benefits but live with their partners and kids. Sigh. Considering how many people do this in my family I won't judge but I know it happens. So they can get medicaid and wic and food stamps etc. But the guy has a job. And my relatives have been on both sides. Men and women doing it. So I can definitely see abuse.

But at the same time if they weren't getting it then what would happen to the kids? They'd be even worse off.

There are definitely faults in the system so I don't want to sound like I'm point the finger solely at the recipients.

For example, for certain benefits that are income-based, if you earn $1 over the limit, you lose 100% of your benefits. That makes no sense. It should be tiered somehow. First, this creates a disincentive to work and encourages people to work cash jobs. Second, it makes no sense. If I can't afford to feed my family making $19,999 what makes you think I can suddenly afford it if I earn $20,001?

[Joan.of.the.Arch]

Steve, I think most states administer the SNAP program so that the amount of aid you get is tied to income and number of people in the household. So one month you might be receiving $220 for four people, and if you report a new parttime job, you might get $102 per month. If you report hours worked have gone up, it might go down again, and so on, until you aren't eligible any more.

Medicaid seems to be less flexible. It is all or none, and that is a hugely important benefit for kids and a parent who needs to be alive to take care of them. However, as I'm sure you know, there are other insurance programs that can cover kids of low income if one or both parents are not covered (or are covered under a different plan.)

[disneysteve]

Steve, I think most states administer the SNAP program so that the amount of aid you get is tied to income and number of people in the household. So one month you might be receiving $220 for four people, and if you report a new parttime job, you might get $102 per month. If you report hours worked have gone up, it might go down again, and so on, until you aren't eligible any more.

Medicaid seems to be less flexible. It is all or none, and that is a hugely important benefit for kids and a parent who needs to be alive to take care of them. However, as I'm sure you know, there are other insurance programs that can cover kids of low income if one or both parents are not covered (or are covered under a different plan.)

I'm not that familiar with the details of SNAP but Medicaid I am. That's a major issue that prevents people from working who are able bodied and willing. They are not willing to give up their medical benefits, and I can't say that I blame them. Being able to get coverage for the kids is of limited benefit since the kids are typically healthy. It is the adults who have the health problems like high blood pressure, diabetes, asthma, etc. We need affordable universal coverage in this country.